Collectors showcase

Moderators: Richard, antiquesword

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby sword335 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:32 am

As you say Richard, quite a sword. There can’t have been many Lieutenants that were awarded an Army Gold Medal. It might be worth doing a count although I would have thought someone might have already done it.
The odd Infantry sword keeps creeping in to your collection so I’m looking forward to the book ! I won’t mind if you restrict it to just Georgian Swords.
By the way, did anyone here get the Royal Scots 1803 that was sold recently ?

Chris.
User avatar
sword335
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:17 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Richard » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:10 am

sword335 wrote: There can’t have been many Lieutenants that were awarded an Army Gold Medal. It might be worth doing a count although I would have thought someone might have already done it.
Chris.


Chris

1702 Gold Medals given out but only 6 to lieutenants:

William Mann. 57th Foot, Albuhera
Felix Troughton, RA, Fort Detriot
Thomas Power, 47th Foot, St Sebastian
Wiliam Livingstone Robe, RA, Nive and Nivelle (2 awards)
William Bace, 61st Foot, Toulouse

(the above from 'The British Army against Napoleon- Facts, Lists and Trivia 1805-15' by Burnham and McGuigan, 2010)

Richard

PS, Lt. Col. Herford who gave the sword to Bace received Gold Medals for Orthes and Toulouse
User avatar
Richard
 
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:29 am

G'day Richard,
Beautiful sword and a great story. It looks very much in the style of Prosser. Is it maker marked?
What is the second set of screws in the scabbard throat for?
Cheers,
Bryce
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Richard » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:23 pm

Hi Bryce

No maker evident and good question about the second set of scabbard screws - only one way to find out, take it apart! Having done so, I found that the top section of the scabbard band (i.e. where the engraving is) is detachable and slides over the main body. I assume this was done to make it easier to engrave and also because a little extra height was needed to incorporate the length of inscription. I had also hoped that a maker might be revealed underneath, but no luck.

Richard
User avatar
Richard
 
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Gordons Horse » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:40 pm

Richard wrote:Here's my latest acquisition. I know I'm supposed to be strictly a cavalry collector but this one has such a superb story behind it, I just couldn't resist.

So, it's a presentation sword from Lt. Col. Herford (23rd Foot) to Lieutenant William Bace of the 1st Battalion, 61st Foot for his 'valour and support' at the battle of Toulouse 1814. The 61st Foot played a very prominent part in this, the final battle of the Peninsular campaign, losing a total of 19 officers, 8 sergeants and 153 rank and file dead or wounded. Such were their losses that they acquired the nickname 'the Flowers of Toulouse' on account of so many dead left lying on the field. Having lost all senior officers during the course of the action, command of the regiment then devolved to Lt. Bace, a very junior officer (although an experienced soldier) who led them for several hours and then brought them off the field at the close. Bace received the Army Gold Medal for Toulouse but must also have sufficiently impressed Lt Col. Herford to have been given this sword.

William Bace (1779-1852) had started his military career as a 'ranker' enlisting at the age of 19 in 1798. He served with the 61st at the Cape of Good Hope from 1799-1801 and then in Egypt from 1802 to 1803, following which the 61st joined the garrison at Malta where Bace married Mary Ann McDonald in 1804. He then took part in the campaigns in Italy and Sicily 1805-06 before returning home in 1807 and joining the 2nd Battalion of the 61st in Guernsey and then Ireland as Quartermaster Sargeant. On 09 February 1809, Bace was commissioned Ensign and Adjutant in the 61st and two years later on 2 October 1811 he was promoted Lieutenant and Adjutant. Bace was still at home with the 2nd Battalion when he received his commissions but the 1st Battalion had already joined Wellington's army in Portugal in 1809. Obviously Bace was not content to be missing the action for in 1812 he requested permission from the Duke of York to re-join the 1st Battalion. Such permission having been granted, he made his own way to Portugal via a merchant vessel and re-joined the 1st Battalion to take part in the passage of the Huebra (1812), the blockade of Pamplona (1813), the battles of the Pyrennes, the Nivelle, the Nive (all 1813) and then the blockade of Bayonne (1813-14), the battle of Orthes (1814) and finally Toulouse on 10 April 1814. His army record states that he was present 'from first to last' in every action in which the 61st were involved from 1812 onwards.

Following the end of the Peninsula campaign, Bace returned home and went on the half pay lists from 1816 until his death in 1852. He was promoted Captain in 1843 and also served as Assistant Deputy Quartmaster General in Dublin for a total of 17 years.

Quite a career and quite some sword .....

Richard


Hi Richard,

Not much to say except really superb sword. Despite it being Infantry, certainly not out of place in your magnificent collection.

Gordon
Gordons Horse
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:18 pm

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Will Mathieson » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:47 am

A sword as brilliant as the officers career. Expanding your collecting field is bound to happen when swords with provenance like these appear.
User avatar
Will Mathieson
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:48 pm

By the way, did anyone here get the Royal Scots 1803 that was sold recently ?

G'day Chris,
I must have missed that, do you have any photos of it?
Here is my pre 1803 light infantry officer's sword which belonged to Captain Hugo Robert Arnot of the Royal Scots. It is not marked to the Royal Scots, but with the initials H R A and the Crescent Crest and motto "Speratum et completum" of the Arnots of Balcormo it is very likely his. It is also dated AD 1799, when he was still with the Royal Scots.


Cheers,

Bryce
Attachments
Crest1.jpg
Hilt1.jpg
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Will Mathieson » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:50 pm

Bryce that is a wonderful sword to have. To me the provenance of a sword such as this is worth more than the sword alone.
Strange how we wish to reverse time to access the past, back to when these swords were new. To think what the owner of the sword was doing before and during battle.
Holding such a sword in the hopes of feeling that past.
User avatar
Will Mathieson
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:27 am

Thanks Will,

I agree. Some swords are interesting for their design characteristics, but to me, provenanced swords such as these are the best, as they are the key to a story.


Cheers,

Bryce
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby sword335 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:35 pm

FF891A61-58D8-4F38-ACD8-87A0FE41911D.png
9E76FFEF-2153-40B6-B3FD-7ECF4AEB19D5.png
8EC90C1E-88E1-4344-9457-D91E2FCCF1BA.png
11D429C5-C957-451F-870C-0E2C54145C6D.png
Here are the photos Bryce. Sold for £2200 hammer.

Chris
User avatar
sword335
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:17 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:35 am

Thanks Chris,

I thought it was a standard 1803. I didn't realise it had a badge on the guard.

Cheers,
Bryce
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby sword335 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Quite scruffy but very rare. I think I’ve just seen one other over the years. Maybe Richard bought it for his expanding Infantry collection !

Chris.
User avatar
sword335
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:17 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Sabre » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:15 am

My collection of French AnXI light cavalry troopers sabres one of my favourite as well as the British 1796 Light Cavalry of course.
Dates of manufacture from top to bottom 1811,1813,German made and not dated but think could be 1813- 1814,1815.

Mike
Attachments
P1040080_2.JPG
P1040081.JPG
P1040131.JPG
User avatar
Sabre
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:19 am

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:45 pm

G'day Mike, nice collection.

I also like these, but in the hand they feel more unwieldy than their British 1796 counterparts, because of their longer blades and greater weight.
Here is one of mine. It was made in Klingenthal in July 1810. It is a bit non regulation as it has a wired grip without brass olives (although it may have had some originally). The blade is completely regulation. It also came with an officer's scabbard. I don't know if the scabbard is original to the sword or not, although it is bigger than the standard officer's scabbard, which it needs to be to accommodate the wider regulation blade. I bought it in France and the seller suggested it may have belonged to an NCO or warrant officer.


Cheers,

Bryce
Attachments
French Cavalry1.jpg
Hilt.jpg
Manufacture Date.jpg
Poincons.jpg
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Sabre » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:56 am

Thanks Bryce
Yes they are unwieldy compared to the 1796 but very well made.
Regarding your nice and unusual sabre having the wired grip and Officers scabbard I believe it to be what's called a Officers combat sabre.http://www.smallwebs.com/Swords/French% ... %20cav.PDF

I notice your French Model ANX111 I like these also.



Mike
Attachments
P1040083.JPG
User avatar
Sabre
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:19 am

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:33 pm

G'day Mike,

ANXI sabres in good condition are hard to find outside of France. You have done well to assemble the collection you have. The bottom example appears to have a shorter and lighter blade than usual. Do you think it came from the factory like that or what it altered later?

Cheers,
Bryce
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Richard » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:56 am

An impressive array Mike. I don't collect French swords any more but here are a couple I used to have.

The heavy is engraved Mfture Imple du Klingenthal Coulaux frères and has stamps of Marion and Bick on blade. The hilt is marked Versailles and has stamp of Cazamajou.

The light cavalry is engraved Mfture nale du Klingenthal Coulaux frères Entreprs and has stamps of Levavasseur and Mouton on the blade + Beaumaretz and Mouton on hilt. The hilt is also engraved 7 eme Ch. s. which I think is 7th Chasseurs a Cheval. I think regimental marking on French swords at this time was quite unusual.

Richard
Attachments
120-1.jpg
137-1.JPG
User avatar
Richard
 
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Sabre » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:03 am

Thanks Richard,i notice the one's that you owned were quite early ones and as for your regimentally marked one two of my An X1 sabres are regimentally marked but not sure that they are French regiments as some of these swords were captured and used by other nations so I believe.
Attachments
P1050210.JPG
P1050204.JPG
User avatar
Sabre
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:19 am

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Sabre » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:13 am

Bryce wrote:G'day Mike,

ANXI sabres in good condition are hard to find outside of France. You have done well to assemble the collection you have. The bottom example appears to have a shorter and lighter blade than usual. Do you think it came from the factory like that or what it altered later?

Cheers,
Bryce

Yes Bryce took a while to find them in UK.
The bottom sabre is 10mm shorter in the blade than standard but all other dimensions standard but the unusual thing is that it's housed in a Chatellerault scabbard dated 1836-1843 going by the inspection mark on it, which must have been purposely made this sabre ?.
User avatar
Sabre
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:19 am

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:09 am

G'day Guys,

Every now and then I venture outside of the Napoleonic Period. Here is a 1908 pattern heavy cavalry troopers sword I found in Australia. Marked to Wilkinson and the Worcestershire Yeomanry Cavalry. The Worcestershire Yeomanry were part of what is claimed to be one of the last successful cavalry charges of the British Army at Huj. This sword has been service sharpened. I have seen several of these 1908 swords marked to the WYC and none of them have any government acceptance stamps. I think I read somewhere that the Regiment's Colonel purchased a rushed batch of swords from Wilkinson just prior to the regiment shipping out to Egypt.


Cheers,

Bryce
Attachments
1908 1.jpg
1908 2.jpg
1908 Point.jpg
1908 spine.jpg
1908 Scabbard.jpg
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Richard » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:46 am

Bryce

Trooper R J Spencer, Worcestershire Yeomanry Cavalry. Taken just prior to embarkation for Gallipoli 1915. Pity you can't see his sword.

Richard
Attachments
P1040402.JPG
User avatar
Richard
 
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Will Mathieson » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:27 pm

Richard I can see him holding his sword with the blade resting on his shoulder.
User avatar
Will Mathieson
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Richard » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:44 pm

Oops ... so you can - just wanted to see who was paying attention
User avatar
Richard
 
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Bryce » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:46 am

Thanks Richard,

I think I also read somewhere that this batch of swords were originally painted green as per the War Department specs, which the sword in the photo may be? I am not sure if the bowl guard on my sword is the original one (although it appears to have been on the sword a long time), as it has a crossed out stamp which may originally have been EFD 08.


Cheers,

Bryce
Attachments
Stamp small.jpg
User avatar
Bryce
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:36 am
Location: Australia

Re: Collectors showcase

Postby Jerry Cottrell » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:54 pm

Sabre wrote:My collection of French AnXI light cavalry troopers sabres one of my favourite as well as the British 1796 Light Cavalry of course.
Dates of manufacture from top to bottom 1811,1813,German made and not dated but think could be 1813- 1814,1815.

Mike


Hi Mike

Nice collection, thanks for sharing. I am a keen collector of French sabres 1789-15 as well.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13&p=3460#p3460

Finding few in the UK I have tended to buy from French auctions and dealers, which I have found fairly straightforward.

Interested in your German made AnXI. What marks or manufacture details are present on this one?

Jerry
User avatar
Jerry Cottrell
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:06 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire, UK

PreviousNext

Return to Antique Swords

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Fatal: Not able to open ./cache/data_global.php