1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

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1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:59 am

I cannot find in any references the makers name "Wyatt". There is a 1788p cavalry sword with this name stamped on the blade ricasso.

Does anyone know of the Wyatt name? Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:47 am

Here is a pic of the makers mark
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Richard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:29 am

Will
Not a maker I've ever come across before.
Richard
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby sword335 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:59 am

Not a name I'm familiar with either. Can we see more of the hilt ? Is it 1788 pattern or is it pre-1788 ?

Chris.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:40 pm

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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:02 am

Not really a 1788 pattern, 1780's though I would think.
URL=http://s697.photobucket.com/user/Willswpns/media/IMG_3958_zps72c55e69.jpg.html]Image[/URL]
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Richard » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:45 am

American? 'Horseman' sabre c. 1775-1790? (Neuman pp. 166-171)
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby sword335 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:42 am

Could be American but I always think that their hilts look a bit "odd" and don't have the form of British hilts.

Does anyone here have Bezdek's book on American swordsmiths ?

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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:26 pm

I have Bezdeks and Wyatt is listed under US silversmiths who mounted swords. Philadelphia, PA 1797-1798. Just where I sourced the sword!
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:56 pm

The blade on this is well made, good taper, width swells near clipped point. Balance is 5 3/4" from hilt. Has a stamped in marking on guard and scabbard mouth A/57.
Through the dirt of time I've noticed the leather around the scabbard mouth is white buff.
Maybe I'm going the wrong direction and it could be an early British Dragoon troopers sword? Before 1788 there were no set patterns. Virtually all American swords are unmarked this period. Neumanns book shows any with this hilt configuration to date 1765-80.
This sword would not have been inexpensive to produce.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:15 pm

I am leaning towards it being a British sword. The markings are stamped not engraved and the blade is fullered. Americans didn't have the capability of fullering blades in this period and unlikely to have metal stamps to mark them.
Construction appears British and the quality is there. Mananskys British Basket Hilted Swords book page 194, IA2. has a very similar hilt.
Over 200 identical swords to the one illustrated is in the Royal Armouries collection, an example being IX.1848

Has anyone been there and seen these swords at the Royal Armouries? Mananskys book does not give any provenance/information and does not show or describe the blade.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Jonathan » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:38 pm

How do we know that Americans couldn't put fullers in blades?
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:01 am

Jonathan you are correct, some American made swords do have fullered blades.
I was told Americans could not fuller blades until a certain period. I think that may have been more of a general statement as most early American made blades are unfullered like Potter.
I do see in Neumanns book the majority of swords English and German with fullered blades and also imported blades on American hilts.
American swords are not my strong point.

It's a bit frustrating to find a virtually identical hilt in Mazanskys book and he doesn't picture or describe any blade.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Richard » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:09 am

Will Mathieson wrote:It's a bit frustrating to find a virtually identical hilt in Mazanskys book and he doesn't picture or describe any blade.


That is the major problem with Mazansky ....
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:56 pm

Here is a similar hilt pictured in Mazanskys book.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:16 pm

Wyatt of Philadelphia mark. Same capital letters.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Richard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:13 am

Will

Mazansky's assertion that there are 200+ identical swords in the Royal Armouries is misleading - there are 200+ with similar hilts but the blade styles and lengths vary quite a lot. Most are by Woolley or Gill.

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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:59 am

What I have found lately is that Philadelphia imported sword parts, hilts and blades. Swords can be found with imported hilts and blades made in Philadelphia or in any combination. Looking at several Samuel Harvey swords the pommel is very much the same. Now to find if he exported parts to America.
Wyatt of Philadelphia has been difficult to find any more info about. I don't see a Wyatt in Britain who fits the time period. The depth of the name in the blade suggests it was struck while the blade was being forged. The blade is too hard to allow a letter punch to mark it deeply once hardened and tempered.
To see what the Royal Armouries has would be beneficial since those 200+ swords are not all that similar.
This photo shows a minor forging flaw in the way of two parallel lines. It was suggested to me that the flaws in the blade show it was hand forged and rollers were not used to shape the blade.
It has also been suggested to me an Irish connection due to the features of the sword.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:47 am

It seems being a silversmith in Philadelphia did not limit one to work in silver but could make swords and not just silver hilted dress swords.
"it is evident that arms
and their component
parts were standard articles
of trade. Sword
blades need to be considered
in the same class
as imported Ketland and
other European imported
arms as a typical item of trade. This explains the variety
of hiltings and scabbards present in American swords
“manufactured in part” by the silversmith who produced fine
hilt of precious metals to the country blacksmith.
This does not mean there was no American manufacture
of sword blades. These foreign imports competed with
American manufacturers such as Lewis Prahl and the Rose
family, both of Philadelphia. It is an anomaly of the way the
trade developed that Philadelphia, a center of blade production
from the Revolution through 1820, would acquire a similar
focus in the blade import, rather than blade manufacture,
trade during the next forty years. Even so, not all Philadelphia
swords of the 1790s contained blades made in Philadelphia
any more than all swords used in Philadelphia after 1820
employed imported blades"

Paul Revere was a prosperous and prominent Boston silversmith, who helped organize an intelligence and alarm system to keep watch on the British military. Revere later served as a Massachusetts militia officer, though his service culminated after the Penobscot Expedition, one of the most disastrous campaigns of the American Revolutionary War, for which he was absolved of blame. Following the war, Revere returned to his silversmith trade and used the profits from his expanding business to finance his work in iron casting, bronze bell and cannon casting, and the forging of copper bolts and spikes. Finally in 1800 he became the first American to successfully roll copper into sheets for use as sheathing on naval vessels
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:02 am

Will

I've been through all of the Birmingham trade directories from 1772 to the early 1800s and there are various Wyatts who are woollen drapers, ladies' boarding school owners,'ivory turners' or plated tea urn makers but nothing whatsoever to do with the sword trade I'm afraid.

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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:25 pm

Thank-you Richard, I too cannot find a British Wyatt that relates to swords. Possibly a British immigrant who set up in Philadelphia?
Somewhere in Philadelphia there may be local files with him in it. I'd like to think it's an American sword or a British sword of the 16th or 17th Light Dragoons.
There was a similar sword just on Ebay claimed to be from one of those regiments.
Time will tell, no fun solving puzzles too quickly. Then on the other hand?
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Rob O'Reilly » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:04 am

Will,

I just noticed the clipped point design of your blade...something I was recently remarking on when looking at Prussia-captured French swords (like my own An XI). Wyatt is not an uncommon name in Germany...perhaps you might want to look in that direction.

Rob
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:31 am

Thanks Rob that's the first picture of a clipped point that is very similar with the radius and beveled edge.
Many Germans also immigrated to Philadelphia in the time period the sword was made. No matter what new info comes up it still points to Philly in one way or the other.
The sword could also be all imported parts or as a sword, I find it handles well, not heavy and balanced well at 5 3/4".
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:21 pm

An inquiry to David R. Hillier Antique Associates at West Townsend, Inc. has supplied me important information regarding the Wyatt name.

"Joseph Wyatt
Son of William Wyatt of Rotherhithe Wall in the County of Surrey miller, apprenticed to William Suddell of Pelican Court Little Britain as silversmith 8 April 1778. Free, 4 May 1785. Mark entered as small worker, 1 October 1789. Address: 12 Angel Street, St. Martin's Le Grand. Heal records him as goldsmith, Angel Street, 1790.

Likely not American although Wyatt was a common surname which showed up in America"

David also states he has not recently had this maker.

Any further thoughts appreciated.
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Re: 1788 cavalry sword, makers name??

Postby Will Mathieson » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:51 pm

What I had forgotten is an earlier reply from Bezdek, lost in my emails but now found!
"it is a federal period cavalry officers sword. joseph wyatt was a philadelphia silversmith in business 1791 to 1798 wyatt like other early silversmiths such as william ball jr. and paul revere mounted swords. they bought blades locally or from solingen, germany and sheaths from local leather fabricators,made the hilts and assembled them. the hilt design and blade length and clipped point indicate your sword is for the cavalry. the fact that your sheath is missing the tip and frog stud(on mouthpeice}"

So we have two Wyatts, I think the most likely one is Philadelphia Wyatt but without any other example does leave the question.
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