Patriotic Fund sword tangs

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Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby hargrove999 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:56 pm

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A Quiz ! Photos are from two swords (a £50 and a £100)
(1) Identify TG
(2) Identify R&B (is it R&B in the first photo ?)
(3) Why both on the same tang ?
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Re: Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby Richard » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:19 am

Paul
Here goes - let me share my ignorance about Lloyds swords:
I thought Richard Teed was supposed to have made them but since he was predominantly a jeweller, presumably he needed blades from someone else? I am therefore guessing at R&B could be Rundell & Bridge and TG Thomas Goldney? But why do they appear together on the tang? Did one make the blade and the other decorate it?
Am I anywhere near?
Richard
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Re: Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby hargrove999 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Image.jpg
Richard - when I said Quiz - didn't mean I knew the answer ! My learned friend (Chris A) believes the marks are probably Thomas Gill and Redall and Bate. But why both impressed into the metal of the tang ? From Philip Lankester's article on Samuel Lines we know that Teed sent blades out for putting the inscription on. Leslie Southwick wrote an interesting article in JAAS in Sept 2010 - called A Rare Letter from Richard Teed etc - (extract attached). The jist is that Teed sent this letter to Marten , who was on the committee of the PF. Teed was asked to suspend activity and writes to explain the complexity and numerous stages of manufacture he is in with various sword parts. Teed was clearly involved in the nuts and bolts of making the 38 components that made up a PF sword. So was their a separate role for R&B in decorating or assembly ?
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Re: Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby Richard » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:01 pm

Ah, I see. Far be it for me to disagree with our learned friend, but can I just point out that Thomas Gill died in 1803. And that Reddell & Bate were a Birmingham company without a London outlet (and they didn't have DHL in those days ....)
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Re: Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby sword335 » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:55 am

Richard wrote:Ah, I see. Far be it for me to disagree with our learned friend, but can I just point out that Thomas Gill died in 1803. And that Reddell & Bate were a Birmingham company without a London outlet (and they didn't have DHL in those days ....)


Richard,
Thomas Gill was succeeded by his sons including Thomas Gill Junior. Both Gill and Reddell and Bate were located in Dale End, Birmingham so it's quite possible that they cooperated and supplied each other with blades at times.

Lines, the blade decorator, was in Birmingham and he worked on a number of Lloyds blades so it's quite possible that they were all produced in Birmingham. After my experience with DHL delivering a sword last year I think horse and cart would be just as quick !!

As Paul says, we are only just starting on this line of research so if you could all take your Lloyds swords, (and any others you have by Teed) apart, and tell us what you find we will be eternally grateful !

Chris.
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Re: Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby David C » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:21 pm

I thought one of the reasons Reddell went into partnership with Bate was because as a tin plate toy manufacturer he had a retail presence in London of some sort.
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Re: Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby Richard » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:50 pm

Chris, David

Actually, I was wrong - Thomas Gill (the famous one) died in 1801. The main successor to his business (insofar as sword making is concerned) was John Gill. Thomas's other sons (Thomas, James & John) were in partnership for a short while but in his excellent article on the Gill family (to be repeated in my book), Mark Cloke concluded from his research and analysis of the directories that Thomas Junior probably never made any swords, acting primarily as agent and outlet for his brother John.

And as for Reddell & Bate, there was a Reddell listed in London (no Bate though) but it is a G S Reddell (JAAS article by David Wright), not the J H Reddell who went into partnership with Thomas Bate.

Does that help?

Thought not!

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Re: Patriotic Fund sword tangs

Postby Bryce » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:46 pm

G'day Guys,

Have you made any further progress with this?

I recently came across the article on the engraver Samuel Lines by Philip Lankester.

http://www.earlymodernengland.com/2010/ ... rd-blades/

The article suggests that Osborn and Gunby were involved in the manufacture of the Lloyds patriotic fund swords, perhaps the sword blades. Could it be that the TG stamps in the photos of the sword tangs above may be related to the G stamps found on Osborn sword blade ricassos? Whereas the "R&B" stamps are obviously part of a single stamp, the "T" and "G" stamps look like they could be sperate stamps.

Cheers,
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